Accesible Yoga Across Communities

Rethinking Yoga: Accessibility, Neurodivergence & the Aerial Hammock

What if yoga wasn’t about fitting your body into a pose—but adapting the practice to fit your body?

In this episode of How Yoga Changed My Life, we sit down with yoga educator, author, and aerial yoga specialist Jo Stewart to explore what accessible yoga really means.

Together, we talk about creating welcoming spaces for every body, supporting neurodivergent students, and how aerial yoga can become a powerful tool for accessibility, confidence, and nervous system regulation—not just impressive tricks.

Whether you’re a yoga teacher, a lifelong student, newly diagnosed as neurodivergent, or simply curious about making movement more inclusive, this conversation will challenge the way you think about yoga and remind you that the practice belongs to everyone.

Click Here to order Jo's book on Amazon

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Click Here to visit Garden of Yoga

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This series exists because so many of you reached out and said, “I didn’t plan for this either.”

If you’ve gone through a diagnosis, a loss, a life change, a career shift, a divorce, becoming a caregiver, moving, starting over — we want to hear your story.

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You don’t have to have it figured out. You just have to be willing to share honestly.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey Yogis. Welcome back to another episode of How Yoga Changed My Life. This is Mia and Adrian. And today we have a guest from 12 hours away, it feels like. We're on different times of the time zones in the world. Joe. Hi. Joe, we always like to start off with an opportunity to introduce yourself. Tell us where we are talking to you from. You know, the time zones really mixed me up. We were emailing and I was like, um, it's this time over here. I pulled up this website like timechanger.com or something and was trying to make sure it wasn't 2 a.m. your time. Kick us off.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Oh well, um, I'm coming at you from 8 a.m. Monday morning in Melbourne Narm in Australia. Um, yeah, my name's Joe Stewart. I'm a yoga teacher here. I teach aerial yoga for a lot of my classes, and I have a little studio called Garden of Yoga, which is actually in my backyard. We built a studio. And I also have just written a book called Eight Limbs of Aerial Yoga. So that's what I'm all about at the moment. But I actually teach a wide range of classes. Like I also teach a lot of accessible classes, I teach chair yoga, I teach yin. I generally teach my like floor and chair-based classes more chill, more grounding, more relaxing, and there's definitely opportunity for that in aerial yoga as well, but also inversions and using the hammock for stability challenges. But actually, one of the things that I'm most passionate about is using the aerial hammock to make the mental and emotional and spiritual benefits of yoga more accessible for more people. Like I feel like that's where the magic is.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Oh, 100%. Like I'm geeking out right now. Um I've been like googling eyes at the screen, even though I can't see you, because I love aerial yoga and I love like the hammock. The hammock is like when you take shavasana in an aerial hammock, it's like nothing else on this planet. It literally feels like you're in a little cocoon. And I used to have um a little setup in my house in Chicago, and I'd have people come to my house and do private classes, and I had one of the aerial um hammocks of the silk, and the kids would love to take shivasana in it. And a lot of times they'd fall asleep for at least an hour, you know, and I'd have to like wake up.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Completely.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah, it's the best.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Yeah, like that feeling of being cocooned and hugged and supported. Like there's nothing like it.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

It's so good. It's amazing. I I also can't wait to see pictures of your backyard studio. It sounds beautiful, and the idea of being in nature and having that like kind of immediate connection, that immediacy is really beautiful. Um, I'd love to hear a little bit about your origin story. Where did you start with yoga? Did you start with Ariel? Was it um Vinyasa? Where did you start to get to this point? Because you sound like you have an amazing story.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Oh, actually, through painting. So um, when I was about six, um, I started going to inkbrush painting classes. And so it's Sumi A painting, which is it brings in a lot of Zen philosophy and it's a whole ritual. Like you mix up your ink with the Sumi, the ink stick, and the Suzuri, the inkstone. And my teacher, Richard Liddickett, uh, was a yoga teacher as well as a painting teacher, so meditation was always part of that practice, and sometimes movement as well. Like, sometimes we would even like dance out the strokes we were going to paint full body. And like yoga and meditation and creativity were really like one and the same for most of my early life. Like, I love to make art, I love to be creative. And when I got to art school, like it really kind of shifted into something that felt like a lot more pressure and a lot more expectation, and it was no longer just fun and play and flow. And I actually went to an Ayenga yoga class, and even though that's not the style that I practice now, I was able to tap back into some of that same feeling, that feeling of being present, that feeling of just being immersed in the movement and the breath. And I felt like it really helped me creatively, it helped my my brain because the torched artist was a bit of a thing at the art school that I went to. Like it was a lot of like looking into yourself, but not really in a like gentle, nurturing way. Like I found it quite confronting, and like yoga, I guess, became a bit of a safe space for me. And I like loved it and kept practicing. And when I finished art school, like I did some traveling and I kind of decided that like yoga would be a really good, fulfilling day job. Like, it's not a nine to five. Um, what I didn't know then is you don't really make that much money being a yoga teacher. So rather than the best choice of being a day job. And actually, what happened was once I started doing my teacher training and I started teaching, I just realized how much creativity there was in teaching yoga and how much like that in itself is like that flow state, especially when you're working with a whole room of different people's energies and you're all moving together, but it can go in lots of different directions.

SPEAKER_04 5:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

And so I kind of just realized how much more like peaceful and happy my life would be if yoga was like my vocation, like my main thing. And then I would just do art for like a fun hobby, like take the pressure off that.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Wow, that's very, very cool. So when you decided to explore yoga teacher training, did you stay in that style of Iyengar? Did you look at different schools? Like, how did that kind of journey go for you?

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Actually, that I did a pretty unique teacher training, which unfortunately isn't running anymore. Um, it was an advanced diploma of yoga teaching, and they had teachers from all different lineages. I loved it. There was an Ayenga teacher, there was a Gita teacher. Yeah, I loved it too. Like the anatomy teacher also taught massage and like there was a lot of philosophy, like it was a two-year course and over a thousand hours. So I got to learn about a lot of different styles right from the beginning, and I've kind of always drawn from a lot of different perspectives and different styles, and also like my students' own perspectives in my classes. So it really works for how my brain works, yeah, to not just have like a set sequence, and I've never vibed with that unquestioning of when you when you ask why you do something, it's tradition, or that's the way we do it in this style. Like that's because I said so for me.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I find it really fascinating too because you know, I led a um an advanced teacher training two years ago, year and a half ago. Yeah. And um I was really proud of it because there were three of us and we came from three different lineages. And so we had also explored, you know, our little offshoots of what we were inspired by with yoga, whether it was one of us was really big in Dayangar, another one was really big into yin, another one was really big in Nidra. So it was like we all had this kind of like little bit of broad depth that or broadness, not even real depth, really, because I mean, who can we say we're really deep into it, you know? But yeah, this idea of sharing just more than one perspective, right? And being able to embrace that because I think in the US, and I'm curious to know how it is in Australia, but in the US, it's very much a, you know, it's especially where we are, it's like, are you a cool kid? Are you teaching with your ego? Is the sequence so crazy that it's hard for me to follow? You know, am I doing a forearm stand within the first five minutes of class? Like you get a lot of that show-off ego teaching here sometimes. And and I I feel like that's because we get stuck in our own little paths, our own little worlds, and we don't explore.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Yeah, and I feel like sometimes as teachers, we're kind of told that that's what students want. Yeah. And to teach like that. Like I've definitely been told when I was teaching at gyms to make my classes more challenging.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

And I don't even know if it is what students want.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Like, no, because you can't do the basics either, right? Like looking around the room in a yoga studio here, maybe one out of 10 people are doing Warrior One, you know, correctly in their body. We don't spend enough time teaching the basics of the postures here. At least that's my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Yeah, and if you can do those arm balances and everything, like that's fun to do that in class. But if you aren't there, it's actually kind of frustrating and boring if the class is moves that are out of your reach.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yes, that's one thing that always drives me crazy. And I I'm I'm kind of a little I'm very opinionated about it, is that I feel like we should be very clear and non-judgmental in the way we cue movement in the body. And so, you know, being concise and saying reach your arms up, right? It's like that's a very clear, concise way of being. I I don't really buy into, and I'm curious if you do, and if you do, we can have a great conversation about it. Um, I don't really buy into the flowery, like lengthening the fingers through the ceiling into heaven. You know, it's like people aren't listening to us, they don't hear what we say.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Sorry, and I actually I have a lot of neurodivergent students, and I've heard especially from my autistic students that language like that is so unhelpful. Yeah. Like just be direct, be clear. Like, I think there's already enough to figure out, especially when the hammock is in the mix as well. Yeah. Like, I actually just try and explain things as simply as I can. And sometimes I might use like a metaphor. Yeah. There's a move where you're holding the fabric, and what I want people to do is externally rotate from their shoulders. But what I say is stretch the fabric apart and imagine it's a big stick that you're trying to break in half.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, yeah. Visual cues are awesome.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

So tell us a little bit more about the aerial yoga, how you got into it. Is this popular in Australia? You know, in San Antonio, I mean, also I just said Australia as if it's the whole country, right? Is it popular in Melbourne? Um, in San Antonio, we had a studio that recently closed, right? And so we're kind of in a um a no man's land. Tell us a little bit about your experience with Ariel.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

So I went to my first class when I was on holidays in San Francisco. Like it's one of the things I like to do on holidays to go on little yogurt adventures. And yeah, it's like a really fun play to experience a new city. So I went with Ron, my husband. We tried it, and I just like loved it from the beginning. Like I love the feeling of being in the fabric. And after like walking around on footpaths all day, like your legs get really tired, and that feeling of being suspended, it just felt like it decompressed my entire body. And I was just like, I really need to do this. Like, I want to do this every day, I want to teach this. And at that time, there were no aerial yoga studios in Melbourne, my hometown. So I like went to the mailing list of a studio in Brisbane. And just luckily, like a couple of months later, they ran the first teacher training in Australia. Like they bought out Christopher Harrison, who um is a really prominent American aerial yoga teacher, his style is anti-gravity. And um I went to the Gold Coast Olympic Village, so it was like being at a camp for a week after my one aerial yoga class and did it for eight hours a day for eight days.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Oh my gosh. I know it was so intense. I was gonna ask, how was that? That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Yeah, it was really full on, and that's quite an athletic style. So it is all physical, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

It's a lot of upper body strength, too. A lot of upper body strength and holding things. And I mean, I I had a hard time my first like real aerial yoga class.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Absolutely. And like the grip strength is not really part of yoga on the ground, so that's a really specific strength, and those muscles tire out fast. And the other thing that I really felt was like every place that the fabric pushed into my body was sore because that is something that you notice in your first session. Like, if it's new for your nervous system, you might feel the fabric pressure in a really dramatic way and like less so over time. So I was feeling it a lot that week. But then when I came back, I had to build my own studio because there weren't any studios that I could teach at. So that took a while. And I started out engineering my garage. We actually um bought our house, like we were um that was something we were already ready to do, and I understand like what a privilege that is, and it's necessarily something for a lot of teachers to be able to build a studio there, but uh we were kind of looking around, and at first we wanted to buy like a warehouse and have the studio in the warehouse, but there weren't any places like that still in a state ready to be transformed, they're all already apartments, right? So we just got like a really little house that had a big shed, and I kind of hired an engineer and a builder to engineer my shed to be an aerial yoga studio, and I just started out teaching three people at a time, and then over time like saved up, got permits, and eventually built a bigger space. Where now, if it's an active class, I have six students, if it's just a like sound meditation session with the hammocks, I have eight students because you don't move as much, so you won't bump into each other.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

And then for my mat-based classes, I normally have eight students or sometimes twelve. Again, if it's more of a like meditation, not moving around too much session.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

But actually, what you're saying about where you are, it's not unusual that there's just one aerial yoga studio in a town. Like there's only a couple of other spaces in Melbourne and they're not that close to me. And it's one of my goals, actually, with my book, to like connect more of a global community. Because if there's not other people's classes that you can go to, it's challenging to stay inspired and to kind of have that network of peers that you can talk about things with. And there is a lot of aerial yoga shared online, but it's not really the style that I teach. Like a lot of it is a lot more circus-y, yeah, and well, not even that instructional. It's flow videos.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Yeah. We you know what's really cool is that um what I work with a woman, her name is Carrie Wee, and she has a few different podcasts, and one of them is called The Expecting Aerialist, and then another one that's called The Artist Entrepreneur, and she is a professional dancer. She moved from LA to San Antonio like a year ago. Um, she's a Pilates teacher, she's an Arial silks, Lyra, circus, acrobatic, all that stuff. So there's an aerial gym. It's called the Arium. Um, but it's they don't do, I don't know if they do aerial aerial.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

I was gonna say, because then I was asking Adrian, well, do they have aerial yoga? Because I have a student at my studio who loves aerial yoga. She has one silk at home and like the rig for it. And so she practices at home. But since that studio that I was mentioning earlier closed, she has just uh, you know, expressed the struggle of finding somewhere to practice. Yeah. So talk a little bit about what that'll look like connecting these places to practice. What's your vision? You know, what are the steps? I know it's in progress, but what does that look like? And how can, you know, a listener maybe even support that goal?

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Oh, thank you. So I have started a Facebook group called Making Aerial Yoga More Accessible, and it's for teachers and practitioners. So hopefully that is a way to connect with other people, especially in those situations where say one video I shared was a blind aerial yoga practitioner. And like as a teacher, I've I've worked with blind people in reformer Pilates. So I I kind of understand the mechanics of that, but the hammock is so much more fluid and um things can go wrong.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Well, yeah, I was gonna say, like, if I I had a blind client in reformer Pilates as well, and you know, I can't even imagine trying to teach her. Well, she's older too, but she was a wonderful student. Um, when you you're up in the air, there's no you're you know, anti-gravity.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

And there's a lot of trust in both of those things because the the reformer is spooky. So then, okay, you're sharing the video.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah, keep going, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Yes, and that was a lived experience video. So that was that person's own experiences. So I really want to do more of that type of stuff, just create like a resource where everyone can come to and like a place where people can ask questions if things can come up. Um, I have set it so that you can't just share your regular classes. Like you can share trainings and workshops and retreats if it's specifically about the goal of making aerial yoga more accessible to more people. But everyone in there is usually a teacher, so if it's everyone's regular classes, it will just be full of ads. So I kind of set that parameter, yeah. And um, I've like interviewed quite a few people from different countries and different backgrounds in my book as well, just with the goal of shining a light on what they're doing. Because I don't even know how you find other people, like especially the way that the internet and the search engines work today.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Like you're not in the algorithm, Googling aerial yoga.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

It's not gonna take me to other studios, like it's gonna take me to AI articles. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

No, it's so true, and it's like it's so frustrating when you know, you've got we're in the service business. Like you said, when I became a yoga teacher, I didn't know that I wasn't gonna be a millionaire. I didn't think about it, you know. It wasn't, it's not a very highly, you know, paid career path to go into, but we're in the service business, so that's kind of the handoff is you know, we live to serve. Um, but my question for you is kind of like when you started doing you did like the INGAR, and then did you do aerial yoga training after Iangar?

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Oh, yeah, so quite a long time afterwards. So I've been teaching yoga for about 20 years, and I think I was probably already teaching for maybe five or six years when I started doing Arial.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Nice. Okay. And then as far as like your husband, because you both have a podcast together. So can you tell me a little bit about that and kind of how you guys met and how you got your husband to do yoga?

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Oh my gosh. So it was a very long life story. So um we met at a friend's son's first birthday party. And at that time, he's he's still a web developer, but he was interested in yoga, and sometimes we go to yoga classes together. Like he'd done yoga before he'd met me. But actually um he got stomach cancer, he had a total gastrectomy, he had his stomach removed. There was a time when we actually thought it was a terminal diagnosis, which was yeah, yeah, it was a couple of weeks between two different tests, between a CAT scan and a PET scan. Oh, yeah. Where something showed up in his lung that was nothing. But um, yeah, after all of that, and then I think maybe he kind of had a sense that he wanted to do more than web development. Yeah. And he really like leaned on yoga practice and yoga philosophy through those really intense times. Like we went to a lot of classes together through those times. Actually, a really beautiful yoga studio just near us gave him a free membership when we told them about his diagnosis, just so that he could come and not worry about the money side of things. And we hadn't even been going there that long.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

That's so incredible.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

That's a kindness of a yoga. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

So, how did he find out that he had stomach cancer? Like what kind of symptoms he was?

SPEAKER_02 19:57

He was just doing really um smelly burps, like that was the only symptom.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Really? Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

So just smelly burps, and then he went to the doctor, and it was a few doctors, like he went to a doctor who was kind of like, Oh, you have helicobacter virus, which he did in his gut, but a lot of people have that. And it can be a bit of a it can hide it. So um, yeah, and then I was like, come to my doctor. She's much more thorough and she listens to you. And that's when we kind of started with all the different tests. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

And yeah, and like that was, I think it's about 10 years ago now that um he we went through all of that. It was probably about two years of treatment, diagnosis, recovery after having his stomach removed as well. I was gonna say that is emergency.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did he have to have like that? Um, it is part of his intestine now considered his stomach.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Yes, they pull up the small intestine to meet the esophagus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

I've had I actually have a friend that um had her ex-husband had a s a surgery where his stomach and part of his intestines was removed, but also the skin was and it was all transplanted back.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

So we had like somebody else's stomach skin on him. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Whoa.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah, it was crazy. Um, yeah. But then was he practicing yoga with you at the time then? Because you said this like 10 years ago. So you've already been teaching for 10 years. You had a good practice.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Yes. And we'd often go to yoga class together. And um, then after after all of that, he decided to do his yoga teacher training. And like I was already like running the home studio as well at that time. And while he was doing the teacher training, he wanted to talk about yoga all the time. And I had to make some boundaries. Like, oh my god, I don't want to talk about anatomy when I'm reading my book about to go to bed. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Dude, uh yoga is everything. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

And after he finished the teacher training, that took up a lot of time. So we just kind of had some space. And the podcast was his idea and his initiative. Like he loved podcasts and he loves gadgets. So he like built the website for the podcast, bought the gear. We've like upgraded our gear as the years have gone on. But um, yeah, I really love the interview process. Like, I love talking to people, I love learning about people. It helped me write my book. Like so many people who I spoke about spoke to in the podcast were authors. And so a really in-depth reading of their books and asking them about it and having this space outside of my own yoga teacher training, which was like a long time, like you know, 10 years, where I could like ask philosophy questions or kind of unpack things or kind of get these different perspectives, was very inspiring. And yeah, I think it kind of um is really like a lot of what's in my book I learned on the podcast almost as much as what I've learned teaching and from my students, especially the philosophy side of things.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

That's so cool. I mean, like, you know, we started this podcast, you know, we're in our fourth season now, and it's just something that we started when we had a lot of free time and now we don't have that free time, but it's still something that we feel is important to do and to be a part of, you know, and and the conversations that we have, and it's just been a real big joy, like a real big joy, you know, and and then getting to have conversations with people on the other side of the world that like, you know, yoga is a tie that bonds people together, whether, you know, we want to admit it or not. But I feel like it makes you kind of have a deeper sense of of connection with people when you share the love of yoga with them.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Absolutely. And we've had all different schedules. There, like we did it every two weeks. There was like a brief time where we did a weekly episode. Now we do a monthly episode, and that is the right rhythm for us.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

And we've even had times where we're like, should we keep going with this? Like, we've got so much other stuff going on. Maybe we should just like finish up the podcast. And then we'll have one of those amazing interviews. Yeah. Where we're like straight back in. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, for us, we took like a little bit of a, you know, a detour with the we didn't plan for this. But then even in the conversations today, every single conversation that we've had, it's like, well, you know, this person's uh job got eliminated and you didn't know what they were gonna do. You know, your husband got stomach cancer, you know, a friend of ours' father passed away. It's like, you know, all of these things still happen, and yoga is a huge part of the skill set that we can share with other people to help them get through the shit in their life.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Amazing. And it's it's like the Sangha, like it's the connection. It's like I don't have necessarily a space anywhere else in my life where I have such deep conversations. Yes. But normally, if it's with a friend, like we're eating, we're going for a walk, there's always other stuff going on, there's lots of detours, but like the podcast, it's like a much more focused um space. And so often you get into like a lot deeper stuff that I don't know if I would talk about if I wasn't doing a podcast about it. Right. Yeah, it's like it just wouldn't come up. Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

And Joe, I want to talk a little bit about your book, and also, you know, your book is titled The Eight Limbs of Aerial Yoga. Um, I want to hear more about that, but first I do have a brief question. It sounds like you're working with what we call special pops, right? You mentioned you have neurodivergent students, you mentioned you have a blind student. Um, you potentially have more than one. How did you get into a space where you're not only doing a very specialized type of yoga, aerial, but you're working with these special populations and I mean, really building a lot of trust to do such a I mean, literally elevated off-the-ground practice with these students?

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Oh, well, the blind student I don't work with now. That was uh when I was teaching at a gym, at a gym reformer class. And um actually through Jiffin Heyman, uh past podcast guest of many episodes. Um, we did accessible yoga training with him um during the pandemic online, and I feel like sharing yoga to different bodies and different needs is just being a good teacher. Like I think it's our job to make this practice accessible for the people who walk in the door, and it's not always a part of teacher trainings. And I think that even in the 20 years that I've been teaching, I don't think neurodivergence was a much used term in um my teacher training. We talked about pratyhara, but we didn't really talk about sensory processing, and I feel like that is such a big thing that we can use aerial yoga for because there's so many different sensory possibilities with the hammock. And I like I don't have a diagnosis, but apparently one of the signs that you might be neurodivergent yourself is if all your friends are, and most of my friends are. So I kind of vibe with different brains, different points of view, creative people. Uh so I think maybe those are the people who I draw to the studio as well. Like it's not necessarily a quiet studio, but like there's space to be yourself. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

I you know what, that makes me so happy that you said that because one of the places that I was privileged to work at in Chicago was a nonprofit called Opportunity Knox. And it was um all over the spectrum of different abilities of these students. They were usually like high school age up to about 30 years old. So this nonprofit would help them with like after school jobs, learning how to cook, learning how to do, you know, gardening and different skill sets. And they started to introduce fitness classes. And so my first time working with them was teaching them a cycling class, which was crazy hard. Um, you know, talk about the bus pulls up and, you know, I have, you know, music loud and a microphone and it's lights and there's flashing, and I'm gonna make you put on uncomfortable shoes and sit on a really uncomfortable seat, you know, and make you pedal this bike and yell and scream. And I just was like, oh, this is not the way that this is gonna go. I'm like, I'm gonna give them towels.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Oh the censor exactly every level.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Every level. Yeah, I was terrifying. Like the bus pulled up and I went, Oh shit, what am I gonna do? And I just was like, You got this. Teach the people in the room, you know, hey, what's your favorite song? Let me put it on my playlist. Do you like to sing? Here, you can sing in the microphone. Do you like a towel? Let's swing the towel in the air. You don't need to get on the bike, let's just dance, you know, and we would do all that stuff. And then I went to other studios and they followed me to a studio that we did cycling and strength and yoga. And then they followed me to a studio that I just did yoga. And then they ended up hiring me to come in to their place like twice a week. And for me, it was the best to be able to share yoga with someone who has these accessibilities in their body that I didn't have and to see them gain confidence by utilizing the skills I could share. It's just, it's magic. It's just magic.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

So, Joe, can you speak a little bit more to what it means, that term neurodivergence, right? We've talked about it. It's a kind of um what's the word? I like it. Yeah, speak to it.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

I understand it, is the neurodiversity umbrella is everybody. And neurodivergence is anything that makes people experience the world in a different way. So it could be like a different neurotype that's innate, like autism and ADHD or ADHD, or it could be something that's acquired like traumatic brain injury or PTSD. It could be like another different way of perceiving the world, like synesthesia or dyslexia, or being in the world like dyspraxia. So it's not so much about for me, it's teaching in a way that acknowledges that everyone's gonna have a unique experience in the world. Everyone's gonna experience these practices in different ways. So there's not gonna be one thing that works for everybody's body and everybody's brain, and I'm not gonna know what each individual is necessarily gonna need. So my job is more about asking the right questions, and it's a collaborative process of working together so they can get what they need out of this practice because obviously people have come to yoga because they want to experience yoga, and it's such a broad practice. There's so many ways to do yoga, there's so many ways to experience yoga that trying to fit everybody into this narrow little box that I don't even think works, like there is a term neurotypical, right? But what even is that? Like, we all have different brains anyway. Yeah, exactly. And especially with things like the sensory stuff. Like for some people, it might be really overwhelming if like a light is flickering or if there's a sound that's um triggering um, you know, something in them. Yeah. But I think we've all had that experience of lighting that doesn't make us feel good, right? And then just being in a space that as soon as you walk in, you feel comfortable and calm there, just because of the sensory experience of that space. So I think it is just working with that perspective of like we're all human beings, yeah, but we're all unique. So hopefully we can be in a room together and do this practice together, but in a way that works for our own individual needs. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Well, and I'm curious because you know, one of the hot topics around our neck of the woods is trauma-informed yoga. I'd love your perspective on what you think trauma-informed yoga is. Is that a thing in Australia? Is that a thing in Melbourne? Is it something that's yeah, yeah, absolutely?

SPEAKER_02 32:24

And I am like I do teach with those principles in mind. Um, there is the very specific trauma-sensitive trauma-informed yoga, which is often um like a one-on-one practice, and it's like a lot of questions and a lot of uh tuning into do you want to do this in this way? Um, what I do is I will always use like a non-hierarchical way of teaching. So it's not like there's the real pose or the full expression of the pose or the thing that we're all trying to get to, like scratch that right away. Like all the options are equally valid. It's just the one that's gonna work for you today. Um, I try to use invitational language as well. So I try not to make it too flowery, but I'll the only time I'll give like a direct command is if it's like a safety urgent reason. Yeah. Like I might say, grab that hammock now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But normally don't die. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

unknown 33:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Like, especially if it's say working with the breath or choosing which variation of a pose you want to do. I'll always like frame it in a way that's space to like you can choose to do this or not.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

It's like option to do this, option to like try and have yeah, yeah. And same as the like direct command, I would never like touch someone without uh informed enthusiastic consent. Yes. Unless it was like an emergency situation.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Right, right, right, right. Like you're gonna fall if I don't catch you right now. I and I think that it's interesting because to me, when I hear trauma-informed yoga, I do believe that there is a clinical place that that needs to live, right? Like you need to be a, I feel like trauma-informed is like you are a yoga therapist, you are working in a special facility, you are working with people that have, you know, that are are are looking for trauma support. I don't think that trauma-informed yoga is something that I would ever say that a teacher at a yoga studio is gonna be great at because I feel like trauma, you can't fix my trauma in your yoga class, you know, like I can't, I can't police every single word that I say in a yo in a general population yoga class, you know. If I'm going into a gym or if I'm going into a studio, like I want to be able to be be myself, right? And not feel like, oh, well, you said this word and it really pissed me off. It's like that, that to me is coddling trauma and and and creating more attention to trauma than it is saying, like, hey, I believe in you. I don't see limitations with you. I just see possibilities and opportunities. And I will be here to help support you, but I'm not trying to take your trauma from you. I just, I don't know. There's just maybe it's also because I'm very triggered by it right now that like when I hear I'm a trauma-informed yoga teacher, I'm like, and you're 26 years old. Like, and what the fuck does that mean? Like, what is what makes you so special to say that you're trauma-informed, you know, when you're you're we're not, we're not therapists, we're not doctors, you know.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

For further context, Joe, there's a class circulating here and it's labeled healing trauma yoga flow.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah, which I think is like kind of charged.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Like maybe a bit unethical. That's exactly what I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Yeah. I just feel like it's an excuse too. It's like, well, I'm a trauma-informed yoga teacher. You know, it's like, no, you all of us have trauma. And I shouldn't compare my trauma to your husband's trauma, right? Like, we all have tigers, they're all scary. So don't compare it. Just know that if everybody has trauma, then all of us can be in the same room together and be able to deal with our own bullshit together, ideally, you know, through yoga.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

And I think it's similar to like accessible yoga teaching. I try and just bring in the aspects that are like good teaching that make the class better for everyone, whether they're like working with a serious trauma or not. And like what you're saying as well about like scope of practice, basically. Like, I'm not a psychologist. And yeah, I often think that people have like I know from my experience when I've been going through stuff, I want to just move and breathe and be present in the moment in the yoga class. Like all of that hard stuff is waiting for me when I leave.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

I want to break from that. Like I just want to be in my body for an hour and like leave feeling slightly um downregulated and a bit calmer and like a little bit more ready to like step back out into whatever else is going on in my life out of that class. And I feel like that is sometimes the most helpful thing for me personally when I've got something huge going on in my life.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

I don't necessarily need like a yoga teacher um digging me into that class where I've maybe just come for a bit of breathing space. Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

That's exactly my point, Joe. That's exactly my point. It's like, why are we trying to be something that we're not? We are a yoga teacher. We are there to co-create an experience so that they can learn how to alleviate their own suffering, period. Right. Like that's how I feel about it. And I feel like, you know, the fact that you're you're talking about the neurodivergent community and being able to service and support them with accessible yoga and giving them the aerial yoga. And you had mentioned, like, oh, you know, it's not the quietest studio in the world. I had an experience this week I wanted to share with you that I had two students take my class and at they were new to the studio at the end of class through Shivasana. They, you know, was quiet for a few minutes. And I don't think they had been in a place that had been quiet for a few minutes in a while. And so when I started to guide them out, the guy was like, Oh my God, I thought we were the only people in here. And he said it to his yoga partner, and they both started to crack up laughing in the middle of like Shivasana. And I was just like, I know when I've gotten the giggles before. And that kind of little silly joy that you get from that, but you know it's like super inappropriate. It wasn't a packed class, there was only a few people in there. And I just remember like I just kind of giggled and I just kept going because I was like, at the end of the day, like, I'm gonna let you have your giggles on the mat. You're not in, you're not bothering me, and you shouldn't be bothering anybody else, you know. But but like you were talking about with the neurodivergencies, like you will have people that are gonna not be comfortable in stillness or not be comfortable without, you know, verbalizing things, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Actually, one of my students has given my studio community a beautiful gift with that. Like part of what they do for their self-regulation is they make um stim toys with beads. And we've just got like a little dish of them in the studio, all different colours, and they don't make sounds, but they are a little something that if you are not comfortable in stillness and having like something in your hands that you can feel and you can touch and you can play with, like helps you be present and be relaxed. Like that's just another little um resource, I guess, that we offer to be like we all relax in different ways. If stillness isn't for you, uh, it's actually a really nice thing about doing Shivasna in the hammock as well, because you can gently move in the hammock if you get uncomfortable, you can roll over, and it is a little bit more distracting for other people around you on a mat versus when everyone's in their own little cocoon. It is that balance of you want everyone to have the space to be who they are. And like I'm with you, like I think a bit of a giggle in class is totally fine and joyful, and often everyone will just, you know, start with it. But if you are someone who just like has a really hectic outer life and like needs calm and space and quiet, like I understand that people do come to yoga for that as well. So it is that, yeah, yeah, it's that balancing act. Yeah, it could sway in either direction depending on who's in the room on the day. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Well, and I like the fact too that you've got a smaller space where you're having six or eight people. Like you're not having you're not trying to be yoga for all, you know, you're you're being there for the people in your community. Um, how long have you had the studio in your um at your place?

SPEAKER_02 41:07

Uh, I think about 12 years now between both spaces. The little space and the bigger space. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Okay. I want to hear more about your book. Yes. I I mean, just very, you know, curiosity-wise, I want to know about your writing process. How did you make this decision? How did you go about it? And then also just the content. If you know someone is looking to pick it up, what are they gonna learn from it?

SPEAKER_02 41:31

So a lot of it came from a lot of aerial yoga teacher trainings are quite short and they just focus on the moves and the hammock. And I feel like if we're gonna be calling this aerial yoga, like it can't just be the asana, like it has to be all the other aspects of yoga. Well, I shouldn't say all because I couldn't put all aspects of yoga in a book. So as expansive as I could be, and also to share everything that I've learned over my 15-ish years of teaching about working with different people, sharing their own experiences, hopefully to equip like a new aerial yoga teacher who've maybe just finished their training to have a little bit more um to draw from and to come back to. So it's kind of like a helpful friend, because there's you know, maybe you don't have a more experienced aerial yoga teacher near you who you could go to and talk to. So hopefully, like the book could help to answer some of those questions. I also um yeah, like I think initially Ran was saying to me, like, you should do a teacher training, and that felt super daunting. And even the manual itself felt like such a massive work mountain to climb. And a bit of a reframe in my mind of like, oh, what if instead of like doing this whole thing, I wrote a book, and it could be like a textbook if I did do it much more of a creative project, which I was excited about, versus just everything else that goes into a teacher training. And like a lot of it was like reading other people's yoga books, and especially um Donna Noble wrote Body Positive Yoga. We've spoken to her on our podcast a couple of times, and just something about her book like she had a lot of other different perspectives in there, like her tone was like non-fiction and professional, but also kind of conversational and easy to read. And like reading her book made me really feel like, oh, like maybe I should write a book. And she is actually so generous and connected me with her editor as well. So I could send my proposal directly to her editor, who um Sarah Hamlin is amazing. She's edited Donna Noble's book. Um, she's edited a lot of um really incredible yoga books like Dr. Gal. Parker's book, um, Dr. Shangraganatham's book, like a lot of the authors who I've spoken to on the podcast are like, oh wow, Sarah edited their books as well. So that's so cool. Um, I felt a lot of trust sending it to her because like she's worked on some of my favorite books. Like, this is gonna be amazing. And I actually found the writing process um like surprisingly enjoyable. Like I hadn't really written essays since school, and because I went to art school in college, like there wasn't even that much writing in that, but I I wrote each chapter, I guess, like an essay. Like I used Patangli's eight limbs as a framework, as a way of bringing in yoga philosophy, but yoga philosophy is so expansive and often quite esoteric. I felt like that was a one type of yoga philosophy that was like a natural framework that I could like shape the rest of my book around. And I ended up writing like twice as many words as what I had proposed, because I wrote each chapter just as a standalone thing, whatever I felt like writing about on that day. And I put a lot of like lived experience kind of case studies in there. Like there's people in there who practice aerial yoga with MS. Um, Sarah Cole. She is an um uh aerial yoga teacher and occupational therapist who specializes in traumatic brain injury and has done classes specifically for people who have traumatic brain injury. So I really wanted to kind of highlight people using these tools in like different professional contexts because I think a lot of what we see on aerial yoga online is the circus stuff.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

And it doesn't really make people respect it. Like what seems like it's unattainable, right? Yeah, yeah, or like a performance art form. Like it's something you could do for fun, it's something you could do if you're already really flexible. Yeah, but there's like so much more to it than that. And also, like a lot of people I work with have bigger bodies, and aerial yoga is so supportive for bodies of all sizes, and that's also not usually a big part of aerial yoga training. And there's some really simple ways that you can adapt that doesn't make that person feel singled out in class because it's options that I offer for everybody. But I feel like if someone isn't equipped as a teacher just to have some of those like strategies in their back pocket, like that could be a really uncomfortable experience for everyone for the student who doesn't feel like they're catered for in class, and for the teacher who knows that they're not doing a good job with that person, yes, but doesn't have the skills to like give them what they need.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Yeah. And that happens so much, like there's so many times, like you said, like you get your 200 hour and then it's like, bye, see ya. Good luck. Yeah, you know, and then you got a lot of, you know, lack of a better term, baby yogis running around there, yoga teachers. And if there's no like support from, you know, the community for finding ways to grow, right? It's not just about like, okay, I only practice this kind. I, you know, find other ways to do things. Like that's for me, like adding Pilates to my training background and my education was like game changing for me. Game changing.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Same actually, because I teach Pilates as well. And it's there's so many more moves that just involve one part of your body, yes, which can make it so much more accessible. Like it's easy to put it in a chair, it's easy to put it on the floor. Yeah, yeah, it's just give you so many more options.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

It's my favorite. Did you do what kind of? I mean, like I can take this out, obviously, but like, did you are you more classical Pilates, more contemporary? Like, do you follow schooling-wise?

SPEAKER_02 47:46

So I went to um Louise Torb is a local teacher in Melbourne, and she was also my home studio inspiration because she has a little studio in her house. And so I did a lot of my training with her, and she's yeah, I guess contemporary. Like she drew from lots of different places and is very anatomy focused. So it was good to have the anatomy refresh after yoga teacher training. And like these days, I teach a very chill Pilates style. Like, I don't teach reformer anymore, I only teach it at my home studio. I still have a reformer at home. So if I'm doing a one-on-one with people, I bring it out for that. But a lot of what I do is just with the foam rollers, with the therobands, with little weights. Yep. And it's basically using those fun Pilates props so we can get a little bit more focus on balance and stability and a bit more feedback with those props. But the vibe is the same as I teach my yoga class. Like I still finish with a relaxation, it's still very much about listening to your body.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Like, yeah, I might talk about very cool.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

No, it's not like a real abs Pilates class. Right. It's not like I agree with you because I think it's fun. I can teach an athletic reformer tower class, whatever you want, chair, but I love kind of being the detective with the right equipment to be able to say, oh, you can't feel it when you're here. How about we try it this way? You know, it's like anything, and especially with your background in aerial yoga. It's like take gravity out. Try, you know, chair pose on your side, laying down. Try chair pose on your back, try chairpose standing up, try chair pose on your hands. You know what I mean? It's like take take gravity out, then look at the pose and see like, what do I need to work on? What's working, what's not working, what's lengthening, what's shortening, you know, where's the focus? Do I feel this? Because we can't move our body if our muscles and brain don't have that connection. And I feel like a lot of, at least in my experience in the US, a lot of yoga schools really truly lack strong anatomical, uh, apply applicable information. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Yeah, and I think the whole focus on like where do you feel it and where do you feel working is so much more helpful than like look like this. I don't want to bring people into that intellectual brain, but I just like I want them to be able to get the benefits of the move. And like what you're saying about being able to take it on lots of different angles, lying down, standing up, you know, supported by different bits of equipment. I think that that head space in teaching has absolutely like got flow flowed back into my yoga classes and my aerial classes of just being like, all right, this is the thing that we're working on. Like, how can we arrange things so that you can feel that and get that benefit in the way that works for you?

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Yeah, and it's almost like Iangar, you know, was kind of like the the first of like the kind of stylistic of let's look at anatomy. And instead of saying, like, well, the pose is this and you need to look like this, you know, it's more of what's the intention of the pose? What does the pose feel like and how can you embody the pose today? Because tomorrow it's going to be different and yesterday was different. And so it's like not thinking about, like you said earlier, of this end-all, be-all goal of perfection in a pose. It's like, how do I get my students to get out of their heads and stop thinking about what they think they should be feeling or think they should be doing or look like, and instead answer the question, where do you feel this? Do you feel it in your legs? You know, do you I feel it in my neck? Okay, that's probably not good. Let's reset, you know, let's try something else. But it's like giving them the ability to answer the question for themselves and move the way it feels good in their body. Movement is in the US, and I'm I'm sure you went through it too, is you know, I got to kill myself in order to be fit. I have to, you know, bleed out my eyeballs and sweat through my clothes in order to be, you know, fit and healthy. It's like, no, I've actually learned I gotta slow the fuck down more.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Yeah, like movement shouldn't be a punishment. It should be something you enjoy and something that makes you feel good. Exactly. And actually, what what you're saying as well, that was actually a real lesson from uh my trauma-informed teacher training that I've done, like that interoception, that ability to feel into your own body is definitely something that's diminished for a lot of people through trauma. Yeah, because they're like hyper-vigilant, so their attention is focusing outwards because that's what they needed to do to stay safe, or also because it doesn't feel safe or comfortable to feel into their own bodies. And I think the props, like say a stretchy theraband or like a hammock that moves, it gives people the opportunity to feel into the movement in a way that's like one step removed from like directly feeling into their own internal experience. And it can be a bridge to that.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

100%. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

I feel like it's so helpful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

It is, and that that to me, like especially when somebody's uncomfortable in their body for whatever reason, you know, whether it's trauma, whether it's weight, whether it's past experiences, relationships, it's like giving them the permission and the space to say, you it doesn't have to be miserable. You don't have to feel this way in your body. I can help you understand it in a different way. And what I tell a lot of my clients too is you can't always fix your own body because you're coming in with an already set agenda or thought process. Like, oh, you know, if I were a student back in the day and I wanted to be able to do a handstand, you know, that's all I wanted to be able to do. And I got fixated on that. And then everything was about the handstand. It's like, no, you know, what are we trying to accomplish here? How do I make yoga be a good thing for you to embody however you need to that day?

SPEAKER_02 53:39

Yeah, like how can this not be another source of stress and pressure and failure in your life? Yeah, and competition. Yeah, like how can it be something that makes you feel like grounded and strong and powerful or like to experience like pleasure in your body?

SPEAKER_01 53:52

Yes. Something that feels good. That's a big deal. Yeah, and I feel like I think the the triggers for me when it comes to this trauma-informed conversation that I seem to get into with a lot of people is that I feel like we're in, we're all having a human experience together. And when you start to say, well, this person's trauma has been through, this person's been through so much. It's like, okay, we need to honor that person in that room, but that person is there to regulate their own nervous system and I'm here to help them do it. It's not that I'm trying to, I'm not trying to be better than anybody else in the room. I'm not some expert, you know. I'm just a mom who loves teaching yoga just as much. So I can share my experiences with others.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

Yeah, and it's not like taking their power away and being like, oh, I can fix you, I can heal you. Exactly. Like that's not what it's all about. Like sometimes it's even like the regulation benefit like comes from just being in a room of other people and other nervous systems. And as everyone else relaxes, you start to feel yourself relaxed. Like sometimes that's where the benefit comes from, not what the teacher's saying.

SPEAKER_01 54:58

Yeah, exactly. Because I mean, what let's be honest, how much do they actually listen to what we say?

SPEAKER_02 55:04

I don't know if this is true, but I feel like the part of my brain that's really present when someone is talking to me is not the part of my brain that remembers what they're saying later.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's like even we were having this conversation earlier today, like when a teacher constantly demo demonstrates everything, right? And they're not, they're they're doing the practice in their body while they're teaching yoga, right? And it's like, are they paying attention to the bodies in the room? Are they saying cues to the bodies in the room? Like, yeah, it's really important for us to see the shapes of it. But as a yoga teacher, that's a different part of your brain. So, like if you demo a pose and then you jump up and you start to move around the room and adjust and assist or, you know, cue to the bodies in the room, it takes a second for you to flip that side of your brain to that working part, right? Like, and I feel like that is a hard skill set for some people to understand. It's like you don't have to do it for them, just you know, talk them through it or be there to support them if they don't get it. But yeah, most of the time they're not listening to what we say. You know, it might even just be the rhythm and the flow of our voice that can help them get there.

SPEAKER_02 56:12

Yeah, and some people's brains don't take in audible um instructions that well anyway. Like I think it's like you I try and do all the things, like explain it with my words, show with my body, and if it's at all possible, do a foundation where people can feel into this is more an aerial yoga thing where sometimes it might be a more complex sequence where each step along the way feel into where you're at, where's the hammock, like what's holding you in, like what do you feel working, and kind of have that felt body experience before going on to the next move or the next variation. Because I don't like I don't take in information well if someone's showing me like 10 different things. Yes, and yeah, I forgot the first thing already, like step by step as much as possible.

SPEAKER_01 57:05

Totally. Well, and like you said with aerial yoga too, like if you're te you've got a prop that's moving in your way. So as a teacher, your movement through the room has to be kind of um intentional. You first of all, you don't want to get, you know, somebody kicking you out of the hammock, right? Or you know, not being able to see you. So they're trying to crank their neck around to see what you're doing or to hear you better, you know. And I know it moving into those different, more complex, like I took an aerial yoga class years ago in Pensacola, Florida, and was like the best experience ever. And it was very much like another person and me in the in the room. And we were doing this pretty complicated, you know, put your arms in this way so that you can, it's like a flying bat kind of thing, right? So you're like, Oh, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 57:52

That's exactly what you mean.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's almost like a like you're flying through the air like a bat. And it's it's very complex to get into it. But then once you get into it, it's like, you know, but getting someone there, you have to be impeccable with your words and your movement.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

Yeah, you have to have it really clear in your own mind to share it to someone else who doesn't understand it.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and especially from like a cueing perspective, like that just takes a greater skill set too. I mean, that's really difficult.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

I try, I feel like as well as like left and right's already tricky for lots of people, but left and right upside down is like helpful, usually.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Yeah, you know too, like when you're teaching Pilates and they're laying on their back or they're on their side, it's like then they're the whole world is upside down. So teaching Ariel's gotta be exactly the same. So, so now, like now that you've written this book and you've had it published, like what has been the feedback?

SPEAKER_02 58:50

I mean, the feedback has been really beautiful and really positive, but the feedback has all been from people who already know me. So I have yet to receive a review from like it's just out.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

So when did it get released?

SPEAKER_02 59:03

It's a bit tricky, actually. So April 21st for US and UK, but um, basically, because of the war, um not a lot of printed copies have made their way to Australia yet, and they probably won't be here till mid-August, which is reading. I know, but I mean like people are dying and like it's such an intense thing happening in the world. I feel like, okay, my book's delayed, but like whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's horrible for everyone. Yeah, yeah. It has made it a little bit weird promoting it though. So I'm like sharing about it online, and like I feel like I need to do that because it's out in most of the world, just not so much my home city. So it's actually it is like everyone can read a digital copy, like that's already out. And some people have ordered it in from their bookstores and they've got their copies. So maybe I need to like just check back in with the Australian distributor and see if it is still mid-August or if anything's changed with that. But um, yeah, like apparently you can get it, like you could ask at your local independent bookstore. It's on all of the like major online research. Well, yeah, I'm looking right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

I have it much. I have it in my cart right now. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. I put it right in my cart so that I can get it for uh for reading. I want to read it. I mean, Joe, you just sound really, really awesome. And I kind of want to read the book, and then maybe we can have you come back and we can do like a little deep dive into it if you'd be up for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

Oh my gosh, I'd love that. I've loved talking to you this morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

I know, it's been really nice. It's really, really nice. And I think it's just neat to see that like what you're doing in your hometown and sharing aerial yoga and sharing yoga for all. Like Mia's wearing her Flora Street Yoga t-shirt, which is her studio that she and her partner owned. Uh, Lucas, when did you guys buy that? Like a year ago, year and a half ago? No, no, no. You the studio. You started the studio like a year and a half ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

Yes, year and a half.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:57

And so on the top of her shirt, it says accessibility, community, education.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:03

Beautiful. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:05

So have you ever been to Texas? No, I have not. Have you been to the US?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

I have, yeah, I've been to New York and San Francisco. Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

You said that. Sorry. That's right, you said that. Um, well, we'll have to have you come to the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:19

I've actually done a lot of um travel like with my parents. Like we did a big road trip. We went through Utah, we went to the Grand Canyon, we went through New Mexico and Arizona and just saw all of those like amazing rock formations and landscapes. Yeah. And Disneyland.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:35

And Disneyland, of course. That's very cool. Well, we would love to have you come and visit us anytime. Um, and I'm really excited that we have another friend down under.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:46

Please come and visit me as well if you ever make your way to Australia. I've been there.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

I've been to Perth, my dad lived in Perth for I think almost 20 years. And um wow. Yeah. Yeah. So I I flew through Melbourne, but I did not get out of the airport. Um, and I I really enjoyed Perth. It was beautiful, absolutely beautiful. And I I went with my girls when they were three and six. So now they're 17 and 20. So it's been a while.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:15

Well, I've never been to Perth, even though I live here. No way. It's yeah, Australia is so big. It is such a long way to go.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

Well, it's like going from New York to California.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

Yeah, I think there's like this thing where like a lot of people, when you're young, you like do your overseas travel, and then like when you retire or something, you do your around Australia travel. That's my parents doing that at the moment. They've got like an awesome camper van and they love going camping and traveling and having adventures.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

Oh, that's very, very cool. So, Joanna, share with our audience, our listeners, where we can find you, where we can connect with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

Oh, thank you. So, my podcast is called The Flow Artist Podcast. I do that with Ron. Um, you can just find the book directly at eightlimbs of aerialyoga.com or my other stuff at gardenofyoga.com.au. And I do have like quite a few videos on my website as well if you want to practice with me like that. And I do some Zoom classes too. So that's how the time zone works depending on where you are in the world. But I have some UK participants who my evening classes are their morning classes. Yeah. And then um the Facebook group that I mentioned is called Making Aerial Yoga More Accessible.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:31

Oh, that's awesome. That is awesome. I think that what you're doing is amazing, and I'm so grateful that we got to have you on the show. And I can't wait to have you on again. We'll do our yoga book club. Um I just ordered it, so it'll be here Tuesday.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:46

Oh my gosh, amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for your support. And I'm super excited to talk to you about the book. I'd love to know what you think.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:54

Yes, for sure. So let's keep in touch, keep the conversation going, and then uh can't wait to talk to you more. And then tell your husband we said hi, and maybe he can join us next time too.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

He works in nine to five now, so we could potentially make that work. But yeah, yeah, he's kind of um back in the office and also like he's doing a lot of other online side projects. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

Well, that's the thing about artists, right? We don't really stop working.

unknown 1:04:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:22

Well, I don't know. Like we both have this thing where like we love our lazy time, but we have so many projects. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

Yep. That's the way my husband and I used to, we used to have a saying, like, we we're the Smith family, we put 50 pounds of shit in a five-pound bag. Like we can make it happen. Make it happen. Well, thanks again for spending time with us tonight, Joe. It's really, really awesome to meet you. And I am gonna be checking out your podcast as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:46

Oh, amazing. Thank you so much. I've loved talking to you this morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:50

That was great. Thanks, Joe.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:52

Bye, Joe. Bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:55

We had so much fun talking to Jo. She's amazing. It took a lot of coordination to try to figure out an interview with someone in Australia. It's not our first time, but that is a whole different world.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

Literally. It's literally like it's it's girl mask.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:12

So it was um mail opened a separate tab and please give me the answer. I don't care what time is it there?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

I will tell you a trick that I learned when my dad lived in Purse on your um Apple phone. You go to the world, like you go to your clock and then the world, and then you can press plus. Melbourne extra, which is probably what we should have done, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

Do it for now. I did it for my summer travel in terms of like being in Germany. Um, that was really, really helpful. But besides the points, we had so, so much fun talking to Jo.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:45

Stood out to you, Adrian.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:47

What I really enjoyed about Jo's interview and what we got to talk about was how she is making yoga accessible for all.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:56

Agreed. It stood out to me a lot, inspired me a lot. Relate to it a lot. Yeah. Um, you know, you've just heard my big life update. Obviously, Flora Street Yoga has closed. If you didn't hear it, go back to the last episode. Um, but that was a big focus point for FSY as well, right? We wanted it to be financially accessible, physically accessible, and I mean geographically accessible, right? When we talk about San Antonio, we were the only studio, if you want to call it the South Side, right? Um we were about to move even further onto the South Side before we ultimately closed.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

Um, and that location was important.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:40

Yeah, it was. And I think the thing that speaks volumes is what you were able to do in that space in a short amount of time. You were there for a year.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:50

Yeah, a year and a half. Yeah. Um, I think it, I mean, like you guys know, if it hadn't been for the landlord, it would have continued. Yeah. I mean, it paid for itself, it took care of itself. I was really, really proud of our community. Losing the support that we had originally from the landlord made it tough, right? When you want to double our rent, that makes and in that short period of a time and a one-month notice, it just wasn't doable unless we wanted to jack up our prices, which we didn't. Right, right. Um, because again, that financial accessibility was important. Um, we tried a few different things during our time, right? To keep it financially accessible. We ran occasional sales on class packs, right? We had the lowest monthly unlimited membership in the city. We also played with this um dollar at the door for the first of the month. We did that for a year. It's not something I kept. But if you're someone who's like, how do I offer financially accessible yoga? And you have a studio and maybe you're looking for ideas, it could be something that works a little bit better in your community, which was just dollar at the door, one dollar, cash, cash app. I we played with it in terms of like getting people in. We just found that our teachers weren't necessarily promoting it or like pushing it for it to be instrumental, right? Or to be impactful. So we we ended up not keeping it after a year, but we did find some people that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:16

Yeah. Well, and I feel like too, it's giving people the opportunity to try something new for a lower, you know, entry value risk. Yeah, low risk. Exactly. Yeah. You know, it's like, okay, if I wanted to go and try a brand new yoga studio and I didn't want to have to pay their drop-in fee of $35 to $50.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:37

Oh my God. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:37

I mean, some of these other studios, it's $50 drop-in.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:40

Like, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:42

You know, I mean, it's yoga, it it should be for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:46

Literally. And I think that that was one thing that I loved about Florida Street is that you had a space and a place for people that was very welcoming. It didn't matter what you look like, what you talked to like, what you drove up in, what you didn't drive up in. You know, it was like everybody that was there. It was just this beautiful little community in an area that is a food desert. Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:11

I mean, I'm I think that I'm speaking correctly.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:14

Um, yeah, I'm pretty sure the closest uh HEBs were not full H E Bs.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:20

Um, you know, I don't know that like a neighborhood market kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:22

Yeah, one is the one on Flores, but it's that SoFlow that has the pizza. But I mean they don't even have the um like water jugs that I needed to like keep water in the studio, so which is kind of funny. And then the other one is that two-story one. Oh yeah. Um it's not two-story though. It's like it's upstairs. No, no, neither is walkable. Um and I think like you mentioned in what you drove up in, didn't drive up in, we had people that walked because we were in a neighborhood. Exactly. Right, which was really, really cool. Um, so no, I I definitely appreciate what Joe's doing. I understand why she's doing it, where she's coming from. And I think also I learned a lot. Like something I'm very excited about. And I'm also like, how didn't I think of that? Right. I love the best thing about being a teacher is like stealing from other teachers, right? In a in the most respectful way, right? Like in a almost inspiration.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

Um it's almost like uh not not stealing, but almost like um adding it to your toolbox. Yeah, it's like this, it's collaborating.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:22

Yeah, right. Yeah, and I mean yoga teachers do it, school teachers do it. I don't know. I guess teachers do it, yes, it is what she's doing for her neurodivergent yogis, right? In terms of shivasana and how hard that can be and her giving them fidges, I'm like, duh, you know, I have fidgets in my school classroom. Like, why didn't I think of that for a yoga classroom? And it's tough if you're popping up in someone else's studio and they don't want a permanent basket of fidgets. But if we have a permanent basket of eye pillows or a basket of the, you know, consent tokens, it's a very small ad that can make a studio again more accessible, more friendly. Yes, more comforting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:05

Well, and I think that one of the things I remember from a studio I went to years and years ago is they had a little basket in the front with rocks. And then you could take a paint marker and you could write a word on the rock and then put it back in another basket so that people could come and take one of those rock words, those affirmations, and put it on their mat during their practice.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

I love that. Like, how cool is that? Well, and then even worry stones. Yeah. Worry stones are a very real thing. Why not use that in a yoga class?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:33

Exactly. And and those are things that are creating a comfortable space for those that may not be comfortable in a public setting.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:42

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:43

Right? Like a lot of times nowadays people have social anxiety too. Right, right. So whether you have ADHD or you have autism, like we should be creating spaces where it's a non-judgment zone, right? It's a non-judgment zone. We really should be creating a space where people can come in no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:02

Yeah, totally. You know, and even aside from those things, I think sometimes what we've seen in physical architecture, right? Is when something is helpful for one subpopulation, it's helpful for everyone. Yes. Right? Yes. A ramp is not just accessible for someone in a wheelchair. Right. Same as these worry stones or a fidget wouldn't just be good for someone with ADHD. Right. Right. It could be good for I'm thinking about this one student I had who apologized to me so profusely after class. She's like, I'm so sorry, I just had a baby. I know I was moving a lot and I know I didn't do this, and I know this. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, it's okay. You know, it didn't bother me whatsoever. But that could be good for that mom who probably had a lot on her mind, who was probably nervous about leaving baby at home for one of the first times and who had a lot of nerves. Yeah. Clearly, right? And so that could be someone who also benefits from this fidget or from this worry stone.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:59

But not only that, but like not only we talk about like the, you know, the nervous first time mom or you know, somebody who's never been into a yoga class before or financially can't afford a $35 drop-in, or the yoga studio is a drive away, not a walk away. Right. You know, what Joe, I really appreciated she talked about too, was her husband's um, you know, kind of uh journey through stomach cancer. Right. And having to go through all of that and how he felt in those moments, and like how people helped him out by giving him a free membership to go take yoga whenever he could. It's like those kind of things, it's those little kind acts that we can do. Uh, I really get frustrated when people think that yoga is a religion, right? Oh, yeah. And I feel like what we need to start to say is yoga is a practice of how to show up for yourself and others as you are in a kind way, whatever you want to say. You know what I mean? Like it's like finding that purpose of why are we judging each other? Why are we restricting to just the cool kids that get to get to come and practice? Or we make these sequences so outland outlandish that you know they're not able to be accessible to someone in the room who just had a knee surgery or just had a baby. Like, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:19

Yeah. And it could just be me. But when that is possible, more often than not, it's a small own business. Yeah. Right. And it could be just like I'm feeling this hurt after having to close my small business. But the reality is, I mean, I've worked for a few studios across San Antonio. And the ones that have been the most open to helping people, to offering the free class, to offering the plus one membership have all been small businesses.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:46

100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:47

And so if that is something you value, we have to support small businesses, not just in yoga spaces, right? But as much and frequently as possible. When you when and where can you support local?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:59

Yeah, it's like if you are gonna spend a dollar, spend it in your backyard. Don't spend it someplace else. You know, really think about investing in the community that's around you because at the end of the day, that's all you really can control. Yeah. You can control how your how your property looks, how you show up in your neighborhood, how you show up at work, how you show up in a class, right? But like really thinking about all of us are on the struggle bus. All of us. So what makes a neurodivergent person different from a new mom or an advanced yogi, right? We're all going through shit in our lives. So I found it really interesting too having that trauma-informed conversation with her because Joe was like, Hey, I think it's a little unethical to have a healing through trauma regular, you know, general population class. Yeah. Like that, that is in a way, what are you promising to people? You're not somebody special, like you're not a doctorate in psychiatry or psychology or you know, human anthropology, development, sociology, any of those things. But yet you're coming in as this yoga trauma expert. And I just don't like those words together.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:14

Yeah, and I mean for general population.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:17

No, totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:17

I was gonna say it's virtually impossible to do, right? It's virtually impossible to do in a public class. And I think there are tips, tricks, tools, right? Even the basket of fidgets makes the class more accessible. It considers a population that's probably not typically considered, but no singular public class that is open to 15 plus people is gonna work for every single person that comes through. And that's not the fault of the teacher, that's not the fault of the studio, but I do think it's the fault of our marketing or our promises, right? We can't promise we can't promise enlightenment, right? We can't promise absolute, we can't promise these big broad statements, which sometimes to me trauma-informed sounds that way, right? Like even if everyone who comes in that room has trauma and you somehow are trauma informed, I do not think that class is gonna be for everyone. No, right? Because it's just so broad and it's so sweeping, it's just not possible. And I I know that's a lot, and I I feel like I said a lot without saying anything at all, and I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:24

But that's what I feel like a lot of times these healing through trauma classes really are.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:27

I feel like too, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:28

Right? It's a lot of words with nothing really behind them because you can't be everything to everybody. Period. End of story.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:35

Yeah, and I think teachers need to get comfortable with that, right? If you're a yoga teacher or if you're a yoga student, know that your teacher cannot be everything for you. And that's just life and that's just relationships, right? My husband cannot be my everything, my best friend cannot be my everything, my podcast co-host cannot be my everything. It's just not natural or fair to ask of one single individual, and that's the same as our teachers, especially if that teacher is teaching to multiple people in the room.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:02

Yeah, the other thing I was thinking about is like as a student, would I be more apt to sign up for a class that said healing through yoga or trauma-informed yoga, or would I just want to go to like a yoga class?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:18

I think it just depends. Yeah, I mean, I think there are people that are drawn to it. You know, I don't I don't know. I'm not one of them. No. Um but I think because I got so many benefits from a yoga class. Run-of-the-mill yoga class. Exactly. Yoga class taught by you know, we'll have Bella coming up soon, but yoga class taught by a 19-year-old. I used to go to my friend Carly's class and it rocked. I loved it, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:44

And exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:45

So I don't know. I do think it appeals to people. I do think it I think it can still benefit people. Yeah. I don't think it's gonna benefit everyone in that. No. And sometimes I think that trauma informed can feel like it's making a promise that it can't fulfill. It's also and that's dangerous to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:03

It's also exclusive feeling. It feels exclusive. Like, oh, did you have any trauma today? Then don't come to class.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:11

No, like trauma.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:13

No, yeah, healing yoga is yoga will help you. It's a tool.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:18

Yeah, yoga is a tool. Again, someone might be listening and thinking, well, everyone experiences trauma. Yes. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:27

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:27

You know, and it's like what Chris said when we say yoga is for all and yoga is everything, it now means yoga is nothing. And I think as teachers and as yogis, we need to decide what we value for ourselves and invest in what we value. That's it, right? Whether that's a certain teacher's style, you know, a certain studio's uh beliefs or values, and whether that's just like what we want to take from a class because I mean there's nothing else we can control. And as teachers, know that we are not for everyone. Our class is not for everyone, and that is okay. It is impossible to be for everyone. You can't. Whether you're saying this is my trauma-informed class, this is my handstand class, this is my yin class, right? It is impossible for any one class to be for every single person on this planet, right? And that's okay. And so rather choose to invest in what you believe in, choose to show up how you best can, and it's gonna resonate with someone, and that might be what someone needs.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:32

And invest in your training.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:34

Invest in good training, not just one place.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:36

I can't tell you how frustrating it is to me lately to see such talent out there in yoga. I mean, there are some amazing little kind of what do they call them in um in that show, De The Deadliest Catch, they call them greenhorns, people that have just gotten on the boat for the first time to go out crab fishing, right? So it's like these green yoga teachers that are kind of just fresh coming out of yoga school from one place, and they think that's all I need to do. But really, if you like you just said, you may want find one thing in that yoga teacher training that appealed to you more than one other thing, right? Whether it be a more athletic yoga class or maybe it's a more quiet practice, but uh invest in learning about that style outside of where you learned it. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:26

Yeah, absolutely. And I think related to Joe, I want to learn more about Ariel.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:31

Oh my god, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:32

We don't have a lot of it in San Antonio. Lucas just sent me one that's just south of us. Oh, no way, just south of me by about 30 minutes. So that would be like an hour for you, which is kind of far.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:45

But we could make it a like field trip.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:48

I know. He sent it to me and I was like, I and it let me show you that I'm gonna show Adrian the video, but I will describe the video as I play it. It is this big open room.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:59

It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:00

Oh, sorry, it's loud. I don't know if y'all can hear that, but there's probably Oh my gosh, 12. I was gonna say 12 to 15 silks. There are mats underneath, it's dim lighting, but with like kind of twinkle lights all around. There's mirrors. It looks super cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:16

Looks really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:17

And we had a aerial studio that recently closed, probably in the past two years here.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:23

Did you ever take a class there?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:24

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:24

I did.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:25

Well, it was expensive.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:26

It was expensive.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:27

I mean, that's the I mean who knows? This one might be expensive too, but I'm a little bit further in my life. Like when I first moved here and it was open, I was a first-year teacher making 20,000 less than I'm making now. You know, and that's that's big and major and huge.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:39

Exactly. It's a it's like a second, you know, uh income coming up.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:43

No, absolutely, it can be.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:44

I mean, I went there and took the class and it was hard and it was wonderful, and I was a sweaty mess. And the, you know, Shavasana was even better. Um, I have a few aerial silks that I had in my basement in Chicago, and I don't have a basement in Texas. So, and I have uh obviously, you know, gonna be selling my house soon and finding a new place to live. So maybe there'll be a ceiling or a garage that I can hang them in because I loved it. It was great. Actually, you know what? I have to show you. I have a picture of me, and actually, we talked about it on the podcast, I believe. It might have been before we started recording with Joe. Um, but there was a uh there was a yoga studio in Pensacola, and they had aerial yoga, and I got to take it down there and do this like crazy, you know, ridiculous pose, um, like wrapped up in the silks, and it was so, so fucking cool. I loved it.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:44

And it's funny because the the studio that's 30 minutes south from me is a small little town, right? It's not San Antonio anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:53

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:54

And so it's funny to hear, like, oh, Pensacola has aerial yoga, but San Antonio, one of the top 10 largest cities in the nation, doesn't, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:03

Isn't that crazy to think about? But it's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:05

And also, Adrian and I determined we might be able to hang some aerial silks in my backyard. I have this essentially giant rig.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:12

I know that's literally. I was looking at that. I'm like, my grandparents used to have swing sets like that in their backyard, but not that has to be at least two stories. It's gotta be 15 inches.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:21

I think it's 20 feet tall. I have a 20-foot tall permanent uh what do you call that swing set? But there's nothing on it. No, it's just the rig, it's just the frame. Yeah, yeah, just the frame.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:33

A jungle gym frame.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:34

Not so jungle gym, but you know, anyway, so we might try to hang some aerial silks from that. My other idea was hammocks.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:40

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:40

Because I also have a smaller swing set that I will just make swings, but it's um we might be able to play with some aerial silks in my backyard soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:48

That's what's really cool about the aerial silk too, is like we only had a um, I think the ceiling height was like seven feet, seven and a half feet in our basement. It was very, very small. So there's certain things you couldn't do on the silks in my basement, but when you're outside, you might actually be able to do them. Um, but anyway, what else would I want to talk about with Joe? Well, she, you know, she wrote the book, which I think is also really cool because she was trying to figure out different ways to kind of share yoga. And at first she was like, well, maybe I'll do a yoga teacher training. But I mean, you know, watching me go through it of writing one and leading one, and you were a part of one, it takes a whole lot of effort and energy to really do it right. And, you know, I had two other people helping me do it at the same time. So I can't even imagine having to do something on your own. But the fact that she kind of wrote the book and she used the eight limbs um, you know, to go through it was just really cool. Really, really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:45

Yeah, it is. It's one that I definitely want to check out. It's on my TBR, which is a little long at the moment, even my yoga TBR.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:52

Your what's your T oh to be red? I'm like, God, I don't know all the acronyms yet. And I just think that like inclusive yoga, non-exclusive yoga or accessible yoga, accessible whether it's financial or physical body or geographical. But if you're into yoga, try to find that place or make that place for yourself or become a part of community where your opinions matter, that you can make a difference. You know, sharing yoga with people, I think, is one of the easiest uh things to do to make someone else's day feel a little bit better, even if it's just teaching them to breathe the right way or to sit quietly for a minute.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:37

Yeah, I agree. I think we have to invest in what we believe in and what we value and the more we do so, the more those things will continue to thrive.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:45

Mm-hmm. Exactly. Well, Joe, thank you so much. I really we both really enjoyed the conversation, getting to know you, listening to your stories and what you've created over in Melbourne is just amazingly gorgeous. And uh, we'll link all of your stuff in our show notes. But don't forget to check out Joe and her husband's podcast. And thanks again for listening. We really appreciate it. If there's uh something that you want to hear, if there's a guest that you think would be wanting to be on our show, send us over to at yogached at gmail.com. You can also follow us on the gram at yoga changed. And until next week.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:23

Bye bye, yogis.